Just recording thoughts, move along. Thanks. You still here?
“I don’t know what our minds are made of, but I know they are a product of physical reality, you get that simple idea?”
So, given you have no idea what ‘minds’ are made of, on what basis do you object to them actually being physical stuff – i.e. the brain itself in action? If the ‘mind’ is a product of physical reality in what way is it independent of causal events to be able to dismiss causal precursors and change the course of events that were about to be caused prior to some decisions?
There, you see what you said, ronmurp?I’m not the one saying it is outside ‘the chain’, that is exactly what I am saying, that it is part of the chain
You are the one saying it is ‘inside the chain’ but then you say it ‘isn’t inside the chain’ or else it would be able to alter what has already been determined.
You cannot have it both ways. You cannot insist that our minds are an effect of physical causes yet do not make effects themselves.
I want to stress this over and over. How can our minds be the result of physical causes, part of the cause effect chain of determinism, and how can they be part of the cause by having thoughts and values become part of the cause of our behavior, yet the ONE TIME OUR THOUGHTS VIOLATE THE CAUSE AND EFFECT CHAIN OF EVENTS IS WHEN OUR THOUGHTS AND VALUES ARE A WISH TO INITIATE SOME ACTION?????????????????
I am the one stating, very clearly that our minds are part of the cause and effect cycle.
That is the whole argument against religion/God in a nutshell, as well. If God can interact with people, which are part of nature, then God is a part of nature and there would be evidence of Him manipulating natural events, FFS!
Everyone get that, steve, sleeprunning, Ron Murphy, Jerry Coyne, ronmurp?!?!
You are the ones that somehow think our minds are outside the deterministic reality of nature, not me and the other free willies(lol)!!
It can be, if you apply the interpretation to it that you suppose I do. But it’s not unsettling for me because my interpretation is very pragmatic. If determinism is the case, then everything is determined and my appearance of free-will is an illusion. But the determined consequence is that I continue with this feeling of free-will, in the moment, while upon reflection I acknowledge that, under determinism, if it holds, I do not actually have it. This is no more disturbing than acknowledging that I am made of discrete atoms and lots of empty space, while actually feeling as though I am solid.
Look, I do not believe you understand and, in fact, I believe that you actually do think you have free will. I call you on your bullshit.
Which is it: you are at ease and accepting because you seem to be operating with free will, and choosing what to say here and feeling satisfaction at your effeorts, or you really are an emotionally void robot that is not affected by the fact that your life is meaningless, and it is meaningless because you have zero say in how you partake in, and run your, life.
In want all you guys mentioned to telll me that you really and honestly understand that it is not you doing the thinking and acting, and tell me that you are just aware of things happening to you while you watch and pretend, like a child in a car seat with a steering wheel pretending to drive her parent’s car.
If that is the case, I want you to convince me that you understand that you deserve zero recognition for what you write and say, that you truly should get no credit whatsoever for anything.
I wqant you to pretend for a few hours that that is all there is to life, to concentrate and experience what it would feel like if you were not making choices how to act and think, and I want you to look around at everything and everyone and see it and them as just the result of a set of chemical and physical reactions running their course and that not you or anyone else, ever, absolutely had nothing conscious to contribute to reality.
When you can tell me what that looks and feels like, then I will know if yoyu are full of massive amounts of shit, or you really do understand what you are claiming to accept so blithely.
I want you to watch some fuckhead gangstas being total pricks and for you to feel scared and intimidated and insecure about whether they will do something unpredictable and cruel, or sensless, and not feel angry and judgemental at them.
I want you to screw up and say something, or act some way unintentionally that you didn’t mean to, and not feel guilt or remorse or because you didn’t have anything to say in what happenned.
You will feel something, and it will be something very deep.
When you people go and do this to the best of your ability, and that means do it, because everyone here is exceptionally capable, then tell me that you are content with it all being uncaused by human will, that it is all just a meaningless stage that ‘happened this way’, then I will know you are not human. Then I will know you are just a meat robot, or deeply psychotic.
But if come and tell me that feeling that comes drains over you when you understand that everything, no matter how interesting, is unchangable by human decision and will, was not in any way a result of conscious vision and planning mediated by decision to do this or that, that in effect it is all just inanimate matter doing the only thing it possibly can, and nothing is creditable to human will(by which I mean ability to choose a course of events, only then will I know you mean it when you say we have no free will(which means any will except that directed by mindless physical causes).
For if ever, at some point, somehow, through some accumulation of processes, history has been guided by human (by which I mean mind) input and effort, then free will has been established.
You see, it’s easy to imagine for one moment or two, that we are just thinking and acting as we are compelled to, but then realize the magnitude of what that means, alright?
Meanwhile, since I already did all that, and assuming it wasn’t just illusions and mis percetions, I’ll sit here and go through all the words here, starting with Jerry Coyne’s, and respond thoughtfully, and ponder why I get to ride in such a handsome and talented thought support unit, or maybe watch TV.